Oh boy, expert...

morning all

expert. oy.

is expert the toughest it goes?

dunno

Yeah I think so

morning this looks fun

hey girly

place one number, woo hoo

i didn't even know there was expert puzzles

ok. now i'm stuck, and i'm too tired to find a swordfish or something like that.

Wow. That one was easier for me than the mediums.

good for you. i'm just sitting here.

me,too

you guys suck

thanks, babe, that's kind of you.

you are very welcome.

congrats on solving it so quickly.

how nice this time of the morning

What time is it where you are, Bubbles?

7.39am in england. What about you?

10:30PM here in California

eek expert yikes

i love california

Thanks. I like it here, too, but I love england, too.

its too cold here

Have you lived in England all of our life?

yep, 22 years to be exact!!!

well 22 years 10 months and something!!!

We've warmed up to highs in the 60s (F), but rain is coming by morning

wow. Its been extremely cold here, its just started to get slightly warmer but a few weeks ago it was going down to about -1

I cannot imagine wht that most be like

Morning everyone

stay in bed weather!!!!

Morning ginger

this one looks harder today...

Morning ginger. Night, all. I'll take another look at the puzzle in the AM

night

are there ANY obvious numbers on this one??? If there is I can't see them!

'expert'? eep.

coming...work work

my first expert...

it looks like this is going to be a lot of guessing

Mi first all time :-/

it is really an expert...

Huh. I guessed on one part and the whole thing came tumbling down. Awesome.

Wow, an expert again. Let's have fun ;)

Anyone able to do this one without guessing? I think guessing is kinda weak and defeats the purpose of a puzzle.

I think everyone should play as he/she sees fit. I never guess, my fun is in reasoning the thing out.

of course, just my opinion :)

But I don't mind other people guessing ;)

I just think u r going to be disappointed on this one sprite. I think logic alone will not solve it

If that is true, it is not a good sudoku. A good one can be solved using logic, right?

that's my point ;)

yeah, there's no way around guessing a step in this one, which sucks

It's not like Jamie to present us with a weak puzzle. Am doing fine so far, hope I will complete without guessing :)

hope so too, so you can share your technique!

My brain hirts

hurts

That much eh :)

you should try a bleeding. that's supposed to be good for headaches.

it balances out your humours.

well, my nose is actually bleeding, I can't stand the pressure :o

Am stuck now :(

that means you have a strong immune system, and it's correcting the problem itself.

sprite - how many remaining?

Not even halfway

51?

lol!

Haven't counted actually. But stuck very early, yes.

finished! - brute forced it though. Good luck all.

grats

Uh oh expert this one must be hard, huh?

Guess the question is: to guess or not to guess? Probably one or two guesses would finish the darn thing, but is it still fun then?

On the other hand, I hate to leave a grid unfinished :(

I think it depends on how stubborn you are, sprite

Oh my. That's bad. That's very bad :)

Am stubborn. But also susceptible to temptation. I'll finish the thing.

uh oh expert. am not an expert!!

Atalante, in this case "expert" means "you must guess to solve this". Not too much fun :(

you should be able to find the 4 in the bottom set easily

urf :( and I was really looking forward to this - I've been having babble and sudoku withdrawal symptoms over the weekend!

after that it gets hard

A 4 and a 3, and then it gets obscure.

yea

just noticed the 3 myself

:)

no spoilers please

if by "obscure" you mean "invisible" -- i'd say you're right.

lol

Lol!

I like experts... they give you a chance to flex your advanced solving skills

Yeah, if they work. So far no luck here.

@texel: that's like saying "I like to bench press 300lbs, it builds endurance" -- but that presumes the ability to bench 100 was once there. hehe

oi ve, me, a pessimist? never. *puts on his thinking cap and gets back to the work at hand*

use the markers, thats what they are there for.

and dont forget to erase markers when appropriate

?

That much I know...

ah well, I'll have a go and be equally stubborn ...

:)

That's why we get along so well.
I am almost done now, but guessed twice. I wonder if I need more skills, or if this one can only be solved by trial and error once or twice.

I thought all sudoku's were solvable without guesses ..? But I suppose it depends on how you define a guess. Intuition works wonderfully sometimes!

Lol, that's true... guessing right the first time could be considered brilliance or a great intuition.

lol yes!

oh great... my first "expert" puzzle. :-/

morning

g'morning, experts

hmm

ooh, i found my first number :)

mornin

hmm even green numbers aren't helping me much here

i filled in one number before i had to start painting the world green

I've got two

braggart :)

mee too,moedog. but now i got a second one

managed two as well. a 3 and a 4

ooh, you're right - me too.

yup, a 3 and a 4

sorry

yeah me too

I think it is imposible without guessing

shouldn't be

time to guess?

you never need to guess

well, you shouldn't need to guess, but I understand why people feel the need to.

you do sometimes need to look ahead, though, don't you?

to try a branch

yes, you always need to do that

every time i thought i had to guess, i found the single number just a few minutes later

ok, i now have masses of green numbers on my screen

i have all but 3 squares filled with markers :P

hmm been over every row, column and square, and still only the first 2 numbers filled in

My grid looks like a christmas tree (all green and red)

you use read AND green? Do you find it helps? I only use green.

I sometimes go over the whole thing again filling in the reds to double check I haven't made a mistake with the greens.

yeah, seems to me if you do all the green numbers red is redundant

tri -- i'm like you. only 2 numbers in, and it's been 20 mins starting at this. sigh

nope, because I'm only tracking 4 numbers

yeah, this is where I throw away all my delusions of sudoku expertise

and marking where they can be, and where don't

can't

woohoo done

Morgan, do you mean you can reason this thing out, using logic not guessing?

i wish my red numbers worked

how would you like them to work?

perhaps if they were purple?

red/green colorblind I'm guessing?

yay, got it

and i've never had red markers work, i'm guessing one of the extensions i've got installed is messing it up.

you and RobG should compare your list of installed extensions or something

would be nice to know which one's breaking it

robg: you using alt to mark reds right?

i think i might have been trying to use ctrl or something.

i'll have to see tomorrow when the next puzzle comes out

::is -> <- this close to guessing::

I resorted to guessing a while ago

at least the checkpoints make it easy to revert when a guess was wrong

I've got a lot of boxes down to two possibles, just can't make the leap past that

same here. starting to annoy me.

::bangs head on table::

I guess correct guess never carries me far enough...

I guess last night once, and entered about 25 numbers after, got down to four before it proved wrong

test

i wonder if Vulcans play sudoku

They invented it, for sure.

LOL

I think it's obvious that Spock wrote this one personally

yes, as an exercise in focus to distract themselves from pon farr

who is this Spock you were talking about?

hehehe.. for sure

this is doing my head in

need to email the creator of this site... he needs to get Tylenol as a sponsor

one only puzzle everyday?

this one is too hard for me

anti: aye

i've solved it

only two boxes filled in and i am already stuck

then rest your eyes until tomorrow :)

k :)

it is morning here :-)

i get a backache more than a headache playing this

hunched over staring at the numbers trying to figure it out

j, you should try something else to play

LOL

sudoku is too mathmatical to be fun, i suppose.

done....huuuuuuuuu...

it's only logic, no maths. you get sodoku puzzles with literals too

>start over< *sigh*

it's really hard

but CONGRATULATIONS! at last^_^

i shall take a rest...

this puzzle is nasty

do you guys know what the icon of ironsudoku mean?

i agree, morgan.

the fan? or the chinese/kanji character in the address bar?

the chinese character

iron?

yeah it is 'iron'

done. only 5 points for that monster? hmph.

shameless plug for my friend: http://linez.varten.net/

it's an addictive puzzle game

my rank is 17 right now :)

no registration required.

It's the Chinese plan for wolrd domination - with every on their pc's playing Sudoku it will be easy to take over the world

sudoku is not a chinese game.

Thought it was a chinese guy who released it.

really? i thought it was a japanese.

though a version of an old Egyptian style of number game - could have been a japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudoku

sounds... US?

either way world dominaation through sudoku is the way to go as every one seems to be playing one form or another

lol. indeed.

Hi Bubbles, how you getting on? is it a toughy?

can't you hear me screaming?

this is annoying me soooooo much

/me gives up.

how's it going kels?

just having another look now.. not too sure where to start

is "expert" harder than "hard"?

naturlich

ah, danke ;-)

kein problem

is there any point in me even trying to do today's? i i gave on yesterdays 6 times !!1

just keep trying

you'll get it eventually

something will *click*

oh well here goes. wish me luck, im so going to need it!

good luck then

Return!! Grrrr

thanks lol

has anyone actually finished this?

bex you are joking right!!!

I think a couple did it

i have started over about 5 times

i've been down to 2 blanks for hours, so out of curiousity i entered this puzzle in a solver program and even that was stumped :O

hahahaha

i had 5 boxes left to fill in and it went wrong

Finished - but only after making two aborted attempts - trial and error, not logic in the end....

one column done

but one guess...

Hi - this is NOT a proper Sudoku puzzle today! You can not use LOGIC alone. I entered it into a verification program and it said the clues do not form a valid puzzle. What s the point if you just have to use trial and error? Anybody can do that!

hi all

hmm, expert?

level: headache

i dont think i will finish this one today

I just joined...is there other levels?

hi all :)

MDidia - what solver did you use?

crys: yep, easy, med, hard, expert

but not until tomorrow

I used the Pappocom Sudoku program.

you can dub in a grid and it tells you if it's valid or not without giving you any clues about solving it.

did you make sure you didn't miss a digit?

Abolutely -- I checked it dozens of times!

wild.

thanx peternl, just started playing a few weeks ago, don't really want to look foolish

well, there's a bug somewhere- either in the generator for this site, or the solver

I suspect it's the site rather than the solver because I just double check with "simple sodoku" and it too got stumped and couldn't provide any more hints.

well, if we can solve it, we'll have a bug to report. otherwise, we'll have to write the site creators :)

I

oops, sorry, I was going to say, some people have solved it by trial and error, so that's what I'm about to attempt (though I need pencil and paper for that...

you can "pencil in" numbers on the puzzle with the shift key

Oh, I know that, but I also like to write the required numbers for each rows and columns on the edge/top of the grid, it helps me "see" it better.

Anyway, gotta go now... bye.

yes, i do so too. it's clearer than filling every field with a crop of numbers

wow, I've only gotten 2 so far... this is going to be a tough slog

expert? eep. don't think i'll even bother trying with this one today!

good plan

good plan

the basic difference between "easy" and "expert" is in the time you need for solving the puzzle. i solve an easy puzzle on my way to work (about 15 minutes on train), but for an expert one i would need at least two or three rides

morgan- for beginners, no amount of time on this puzzle is going to help; they'll need more advanced solving strategies

@chebuctonian: that's right. i forgot about that.

for us... it's more time :)

unfortunately, I'm starting to think this one is in fact not solveable

(see MDidia's comments below)

have a break. i started the puzzle at about 10am. now here its 3pm. and i just didn't solve it but after every break i found one or two numbers

have you solved it yet?

I got a 3! woo!

no

well, the solver I just used says it's not a valid puzzle either

we'll see (i thought about using a solver too, but i don't wanna loose the fun)

I'm gonna _earn_ my 5 points :D

not a valid puzzle? uh-oh, i don't like to hear that

I was wondering when you'd show up, hurshy :)

i been here, just quiet

So is my fiancee apparently.

?

Rachel. It says she's online

maybe she just left herself logged in

Possibly.

Well, that was annoying

what?

I accidentally hit the back button on my fancy internet keyboard

oops

I just sent in a bug report

got rid of the 3 squares of greens I had done

i have all my greens in

i am afraid it does not look promising

how many numbers did you place before you went that way?

me too. not getting anywhere fast.

before I tried a solver? only the 3

i placed 2

i got a 3 and a 4

a 3 and a 4

3 and 4?

yes

ok

yeah, 4 is easy

Expert. Uht-oh.

hmm... my solver with a different setting says "solved it but had to guess (and there could be more than one solution)"

:(

lovely.

i mean, |lovely

my sister and i decided there should be a symbol for sarcasm

we thought if you start with | that means sarcasm follows

I agree

Thanks for being a pioneer and providing us the sarcasm character

yw

I'll pass it on to my children, and they'll pass it on to their children, and so forth

an heirloom of sarcasm

Is there nothing more valuable?

lol

Hmm, I wonder if that should've been preceded by a |

just make sure rachel wants children before you make these grand plans

mmmm I've heard that this is a hard one

Will do. I won't get carried away :)

hurshy sad

invalid puzzle no fun

Invalid?!

this is what chebuc says

Still trying but it looks that way :(

what would happen if one day the puzzle was impossible?

solver tells chebuc puzzle invalid, ie guessing required, more than one solution poss

we would have to GUESS

dirty word

the good guessers get points ;)

alright, going to mark a trail now

I was pretty happy with yesterday's puzzle; it went easily for me

I hate this one

candidate cells are all straddling boxes so its impossible to eliminate any numbers with certainty

Sounds like this is going to be bad

even guessing doesn't get you far at a time

ick

wow, finally managed to eliminate one green number. Doesn't help though...

Half the possibilities marked..

should have used the sarcasm signal

ugh, this is awful

I'm going to eat breakfast

Back! So, I did some tests and experiments with software and found that there is ONE number that can be added (but it can't be deduced logically, it would have to be guessed) to render the rest of the puzzle actually solvable by logic alone.

I'm going to eat breakfast AND shower.

'bout time! ;-)

tell us which, please, and save us big headaches

pretty please with sugar on top

I dunno, some pople might enjoy the trial and error (I personally don't...) I will say it's a 4.

i don't either

4 in which row

no clues please

close the chatbox if you don't want it

and then we'll post a bunch to get rid of it

man no!

just give us 2 minutes for those who want the clue

send an email with the clues, but not in the chatbox

Yeah... I'm not gonna give any more away.

Send a clue to sudoku@chipt.com :)

you won't even SEND me the 4?

ok we should go get coffee

forget it, i am too tired for this.

lol what kind of clue is that.

Whoa! That was a beastie... : /

One that actually makes the puzzle solvable without guessing

i'm trying to give up smoking but this puzzle ruin my resolve

Hang on a sec, I'll upload a clue to my webspace so anybody who wants to can see it -- saves me having to email folk.

Hey Anj, done? I haven't been here long...

where is your webspace?

i get headache. this puzzle is a monster

Bunny, yup. Apart from the two numbers you can enter, my next move was a 50:50 guess and that nailed it : )

Good for you! Working on a guess right now, cross your fingers for me!

Hang on... still uploading....

yeah every cell got more than 2 possibilities, i got only 2 numbers that for sure

2 numbers makes it a very hard start

Fingers crossed BV : )

Here you go - it tells you the number, row and column. http://www.classical-webdesigns.co.uk/sudoku.
html

i did not know guessing was part of this game

There could possibly be another number that enables it to be solved, but that's the FIRST one that worked for me.

thanks, hopes it helps

good luck! I know I will need it when I return from school to try and get this one!

thanks for the tip, I will try fuzzy logic before I use it

thank you!

Well, I'm off - happy with my 5 points and good karma.

OMG i excluded this number for this cell...

what torture has Dr_God provided for us today

David Mitchell :Don't you sleep?

Heh, dplass

I got up just before coming on here

so guys i just started over. was completely dazzled

this has the makings of a doozy

I think I have everything marked now. Ugh.

All the possibilities, that is.

Man... all again

starting over

ooh, how many points for an expert?

ooh! and expert! i don't think i've done one of those yet.

don't get excited yet ;)

well, they're all nightmares to me.

done, but I cheated :-(

boo

how do you cheat?

hehe

hahahaha

>I'll not make you sin

there is software that can help solve sudokus

right, I needed some help so I can go back to work :-P

F*** ! I logged in and out and it says i HAVEN'T finished! I completed it 5 minutes ago. HOW can that happen?

Finally finished pencil marking

wow

Stef: now you can get the points again ;)

Guh. I don't see anything..

it's slow going

I've found 1 number so far

ok, this is too much for me, so I just ran the solver I wrote, and it had no problem solving it in about a hundredth of a second. Don't you hate computers.

Of course, now I *cant* solve it, and have to wait til tomorrow, but that'

probably just as well, since I dont have time to do it today

you could log in as another player

Oh, there's one number

no, I mean I wouldn't solve it now having run a program to do it (mind you, I didn't even look at the solution, so I suppose I could).

hey! There's a number!

I have placed two numbers.....and then there's a sea of green :)

sea of green numbers here too ...

yeah same here

but yeah, I placed a 3

idk y, but i always used the red numbers

I think everyone has placed that 3

yup, i have

I was just noting that I found one, after five minutes of searching it's nice to find something - lol

I wish I were better at these

dont we all?

I've just started and there are 4 numbers that can be easily placed at the start. Haven't started entering my potentials yet.

i got that easy 4 too

Babbler, you're smarter than I

lol!!! I'm not smart at all!! XD I always start with a general sweep of a grid, cross-hatching I think it's called. :D

cross hatching?

So do I, and you placed 4 while I only placed 2

yes, it's when you look at a row or column of 3 boxes and see what needs to roughly goes where. Sometimes you can spot what needs to go where straight off.

YEah, I only found 2 of those so far

There are only two which can be placed that way according to Sudo Cue's analysis - I'd check my work...

I've placed 5 numbers now

oh, well then 2 is all I'll find then so far

there's that too, caderoux..... there's a huge change I could be horribly wrong! :s

i only placed 2, and now im onto the subscripts

I try to avoid subscripts, they mess me up

its the only way i finish any of these

It says 37 hidden singles, 15 naked singles, 2 line-box intersections and 1 brute force. From what I can tell, you can get the 2 intersections and then you have to figure out the brute force, then it should all fall out with pairs.

what says all that, caderoux?

Very interesting caderoux

before people said that this couldn't be done w/o guessing, are you saying different, caderoux

yes he is

Unless the brute force IS guessing...

'brute force' means.... ??

grabs a number 5 "you WILL go in that cell!!"

the other person had used an analysis program too.

it disturbs me if diff computer programs say diff things!!!

it's interesting they do that, hursh. I'm sure there are different routes to solving the same puzzle.

There are sites dedicated to people programming sudoku solvers, it's that there is no single right way

This looks like an interesting sudoku.

heh

Well I've gotten 2 numbers in 25 minutes...

I just got my second num. yiha!

Are we all having fun solving today's controversial puzzle? :)

I'm only 3 minutes in.....why the controversy?

looks good so far, Dr G! just putting in my potentials : )

Dr_God we hate you. Yet we love you.

if by "solving" you mean "complaining about", then yeah.

why is it controversial?

kindkat, look at the difficulty

yes....I noticed...

I'm not sure what "brute force means". I got as far as I could here and filled in all the greens. I managed to exclude some numbers, but nothing beyond the first 3 and 4. I couldn't see anything, so I keyed it into Simple Sudoku and it told me no hints. The last one I had like that I posted on a Sudoku forum and they gave me a logic sequence which released the puzzle; there wasn't anything more difficult than that afterwards. So I decided to try Sudo Cue to see if that had more powerful hinting. As far as there being a single right way, in most, if you do it in order of least complex patterns to most complex patterns, there is basically one way.

nice 5 points

There is much debate if it can be solved without guessing, software analyses says that it can but it's escaping lots of us

aha...I see.

anyway, I haven't gotten any further examining how to know which cell to brute force and what that means and have not looked at the solution.

brute force = guessing

there is guessing involved, can't be done without it.

ok...we all know there were two 'easy' numbers to fill in ( a 3 and a 4)....when someone gets all the way up to a third number why don't you 'splain how you got there

usagi: good idea

i was just lamenting last night "I wish I could sit behind someone and have them explain how they got each and every number"

might as well learn something - this one is kicking my butt :)

umm.... I put 5 numbers in at the start

I've got a program's analysis I'm reading over for that exact thing, the analysis is long

Babbler: really?

I thought I had a 4 in the top middle cell - but that turned out to be a missing-7-green-marking, so I thought I had a naked pair which would have excluded the 6 from the 4/6 pair there.

make that 6...

babbler: there are only 2 numbers you can find using the cross section eliminations...if you've somehow found more, do tell

ok...

There's also some exclusions you can do based on 1s and 6s, but they don't fully reveal any cells.

exactly

I've got the 3s across the middle row of boxes

that's a gimme

I've got all the 2 throughout the grid

he just said that they dont fully reveal any cells

you can't get the 2 in the middle left

I've got the 4s across the bottom row of boxes

2's throughout is had to be a guess somewhere

or in the center

4s across the bottom, check

I have : /

maybe I'm wrong.... :/

there ya go

ok, the two easy ones were the three in the center left, and the 4 in the bottom center....anything after that is ahead of most of us

I'll find out soon enough, won't I? lol

so were all stuck....

I'm going to post the program's explanation for the 3rd number, though it eludes me right now

ok

no wait

i have it

10110100010001010111011110111000010101011

:D

Shit, I thought it was 001011010101010110101100101101?

ok - first hint, no zeroes in Sudoku :)

i did it... but had a lil help, someone showed me a 4

lol

well why didn't you say that before lol!! (*goes straight over my head - whooosh!* )

no, no, no....the top left cell is a 42. duh!

For those looking for the program's explanation for the 3rd number: http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt

actually, ALL the cells are 42! done!

This was gotten from an online sudoku solver linked from sudocue.net

lol, that's all gibberishy

there is some terminology, "box"es are the sets of 9

So it takes like 8 steps of intution on top of intuition on top of intuition to get the third number?

well yet another puzzle kicks my butt. later.

That is a forcing chain even more difficult that the one I previously needed - must go to work, cya...

seeya

From the looks of the analysis there are a series of numbers that rely on forcing chains

hi I'm new!!!

this is just evil

hey batgirl, you came on one heck of a challenging day

I figured out the terminology....but I only get to step 3 before it confuses me : Consider the chains (4,5)+{??6|7?F}+(6,6) and (4,5)-1-(7,5)-7-(6,5).
Since it is certain that Row 6 will not contain the value 7 in at least one of the cells (6,6) and (6,5), the cell (4,5) does not contain the value 6.
- The move (4,5):=6 has been eliminated.

I don't understand why "The value 6 in Box [3,3] must lie in Row 8."

I'm still trying to grok it myself

batgirl, welcome aboard but be forewarned this is a tough one

if you can get it, then clearly thou art god

ok...that I can answer:) Row 7 has a 6 given (bottom left), bottom middle has row 8 full without a 6, so that box's 6 must be row 9....therefore bottom left's six must be row 8

hi batgirl : ) you'll probably crack this before the rest of us, beginner's luck and all : )

...all that does is reduce the green a bit

thanks I'll try

I see. I was just sloppy about filling in possibles.

ya i got all that b4, but it still doesnt actually get you anywhere

i got one number!

it does not take any guessing you can do it by straight logic

just remeber the rule of twins.

(whew, now i can go to work)

grigs that is not what a sudoku checking program said

the board is suppose to be blank

well, i just did it....

you got lucky

to use the rule of twins I'd have to have some squares with only two possibilities :)

trial and error is guessing too.

I have to power down..... thunder and lightening over London (UK). good luck and see you later! : )

I didn't use any trial and error. No guessing. Only filling in possibles.

Unless somewhere in there I made a mistake in my logic, which I guess would count as guessing.

what's the rule of twins?

If you have 2 squares in a row that can both only be 1 or 2, then no other boxes can be 1 or 2

no other boxes in that row that is

that applies to rows, columns and boxes

right

if you have two squares in a line (vertical or horizontal) with only two possibilities, no other squares in that line can be either number.

grigs, also for sets of 9

true that, Ronin.

lol

ie....if you have two squares in any set (row,column,box) that are either 1 or 7....then you know what one of them has to be one and the other has to be 7, so no other square in that set can be a 1 or a 7

with just those two rules, the puzzle can be solved in... oh... about an hour (i'm slow, I know, but I get there eventually)

anyway, to workwith me... good luck, y'all... or good logic, if you prefer.

I don't think so grigs...

I solved but by trial and error surrounding the ones in the middle and lower middle squares

I went looking for twins a while ago....after filling in the two squares you easily and doing some logic to reduce possibilties I didn't have any twins on my board

the rule of twins can be expanded to the rule of triplets also if you have three squares in a row, column, or box with the same three numbers.

@usagi: thats what i did. but it failed twice

If it fails, it means you probably didn't have all the possibilities filled in......I have no twins on this board, personally

Apparently this can be solved using a "3D Medusa" method

????

????

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sudoku/t
op95-analysis.htm

if someone can work through that logic, let me know :)

I knew somewhere there must be mathies writing papers on Sudoku :)

this is hard!!!! O well its better than paying attention in class right now lol!!!;)

HS, or college batgirl?

hs

nice, ur the same way i was when i was in HS

paying attention in class sucks ;-)

heck yes

and I find myself stuck again

we are all stuck

I've paired down the pencil marks a lot, but there are is a whole lot of nothing for my feeble mind

well i am gonna walk away for a little while and then come back to see how much good that does

bye

im not very good at this online lol.. im a first timer

i can do them by hand though

kacie, don't judge yourself by this one

This is a difficult one

can i print it out? or will it ruin it?

go for it, though it doesn't print out especially nice

lol i think ill just draw it

Alright, I gotta take care of other stuff. I'll mess with this more later. Good luck everyone

looks like the matrix with all those litle green numbers

did you solve this one yet, hurshy?

ok, i have a whole board and just a few numbers filled in, and I don't see any twins or triplets.

can someone explain the syntax of this chain description? (4,5)+{??6|7?F}+(6,6)

kacie, if you're on a mac you can do a box-screen shot: apple-shift-4 to get a good copy to print out

hi experts :)

hi yul :)

man, this is redonkulous

i would start guessing but i don't even see a good place to start

I don't know if I"m going to come out of this a much better solver or learn nothing at all

looks like i will be here for a bit, btwrt

so far i've employed all my tricks and managed to get one number. soooo ...

oh wait! i have TWO

I have two blanks filled in

two more than me!!

look closer :)

but don't hit your head off the screen

yul, if you're farther along than me already, i may really not be your friend anymore

no, i have 2

ahh then we're all in the same boat :)

except caff

Simple Sudoku says this thing has four solutions!

?

someone posted a web page earlier that gives u a number to start with

i've got 2 as well

laa-aame

Not supposed to work that way, is it, redguy?

k.. i think i'm gonna dive in & start guessing

FINISHED!!!!!!!!!

FINISHED!!!!!!!!!

awesome! how'd you do it?

damn you!

oh, you used that number? i'm thinking of doing that

i dont no really but that number that some one put on doesnt help that much but it gets u going

i dont no really but that number that some one put on doesnt help that much but it gets u going

oh ok. i'm trying it, then. hurshy recommended :)

i have to do all my homework now though

what number ist hat?

i think i missed it

http://www.classical-webdesigns.co.uk/sudoku.

html

its on there

thanks

I'm still hoping to do without

me too

i'm trying a wild guess without it first, if that doesn't work then i'll use the #

same

hurshy says i have to tell u's i am 14

lol good for you ;)

Yay. I got my 2 numbers

Yay. I got my 2 numbers!! :-)

Yay. I got my 2 numbers!! :-)

Yay. I got my 2 numbers!! :-)

Oh. Sorry.

I'm trying to use the "hidden subset" technique but haven't spotted anything yet

well i used that number and i'm finished. the victory is less for having gotten help but ... at least i can get on with my day ;) good luck you guys! i hope you can solve it without getting help!

so how many points is it worth?

finished!

Five points, I think

yup, 5

Frigging Nora. that was tough. It's taken me approx 9 hours - on and off.

I need a cup of tea... get my energy back

Did you two do it without guessing?

messed up, so giving up. i'll try again tomorrow. i can only do the easy ones

I did have to guess. I had either a 1 or a 7 for a particular square so I did a save and went with the 1. Good job I did the save too.... :)

Heh

Bother.

done...made 4 guesses in a row and nailed them all...

i wish i knew the way of doing it without guessing

definitely want to try to finish without guessing

tp17, if you do that, make a note of a key number,please

you got it

thanks

Eliminated one incorrect possibility I put down earlier..

ha

Here's what I have so far, incase anybody wants to see. It's not much:

http://www.timmyponline.com/random/sud
oku.jpg

I think I'm about to fall asleep looking at this puzzle

Mattias!!!!!

awwwexxxxx

hee hee

damn this is hard

it is def. a guessing time for me :(

HOLY SHIT!

finally did it

sorry for the french, but this has taken me all day

did you guess, m.?

There's something that ronin put up here a few hours ago that helped me. I didn't understand all the notation, but it smoothed things out considerably:

Done!

http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt

that actually helped you, the termonology is so far off the wall that i dont get it at all

can you explain the notation?

not really

yeah, i had to guess

no cheating though :)

apparently it's from a sudoku solver that he found, which I can't find.

newer mind, i will miself

interesting

you are clearly the better sudokuer, marcii

no cheating for me too

but i need to find if there are any extra solving techniques

what does everyone else use to solve this stuff?

damn expert? maybe it's easier than easy hah

techniques, not programs

tears, wailing and lamentations!

a few 4 letter words to boot!!

programs are just automated techniques

lol

dave, do u have any other techniques to solve this thing?

Well, I use all the standard ones... this one I believe requires a guess

slicing and guessing so far. newer needed xwing or swardfish, as i slice to death first :)

but guess in a place where you can cascade several boxes to see

but guessing takes away from the point of sudoku

well, it's not really a guess if you do it right

it's a trail of logic that begins by assuming a value

haha, thats one way of looking at it

:)

much like in a mathematical proof if they use an assumed value to prove a single case, then extrapolate

shift click - that's what it's all about when you don't know

You'll be surprised at what that doesn't do for you today, dtan

they call it a forcing chain - rather than a guess - but basically it's a lookahead - if you read the 3.txt file posted here, it explains it, but it's hard to breakdown the notation in the beginning

this to me is above expert, the chain gets crazy long... though I probably picked the wrong box to start in first... :)

I've never used a forcing chain before but I'm reading about them

I'm leaving for now...I'll be back later!!

good luck!!

i guess people have different definitions of what makes a valid sudoku

some seem to say that it is not valid if you have to do that

oh well

There is that debate about symmetrical vs. non-symmetrical, too. ;-)

any updates, aside from guessing?

done

wd

what did u do that got you out of the 'stuck' part that we are all at?

caderoux, where?

Anyone just used?: http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt And finished it from there?

i can not access it

newer mind

I couldn't follow the notation easily... making my own chains here

I'm just glad I did steps 1 and 2 in his file before I read it

makes me feel a little bit smarter

whew, done

caderoux - can you explain the notation in that solution?

4,5)+{??6|7?F}+(6,6) for instance

I don't understand those notations yet.

I don't even understand the reasoning for the first line in that thing

Oh wait

Suddenly I do

Silly me!

i am so stuck...

after the steps in the 3.txt, it all drops out with no advanced techniques - now to understand that logic...

I know that boxes are in []'s and cells are in ()'s. There's 3x3 of boxes and 9x9 of cells

so step 1 says that the value of 1 in the top-left box has to be in the 3rd row, either (3,1) (3,2) or (3,3).

which means you can eliminate the possibility that it's in the top-left-hand cell (1,1)

step 2 follows the same logic, and step 3 is out of my league (for the moment)

step 3 is the confusing part though :)

I think you can see step three by trying a 6 in box 4,5

cell 4,5

yeah i'm still not seeing it

ahh

If you put a 6 in cell 4,5, that forces a 4 in cell 3,5, and a 2 in cell 4,6, then a 5 in cell 5,5, then a 7 in cell 6,6 then there's nothing to put in cell 6,5

the question is, is there a way to see that without guessing

that's what I'm trying to find out

right, thats what Im wondering .... how do I spot that as a logical deduction.

is there anyone out there who knows how to solve this without guessing?

seems like there's a triple or quad with 567

It's impossible to solve this without guessing

it's not impossible

Prove it

you can't prove a negative ;)

guessing must

there is a logical solution

thanks citizen, that really helps! i suppose i'll start the guessing!

Not without guessing. Believe it or not there are sudoku puzzles where guessing is required.

how do you know which cell is 'box 4,5.'? The box I would think of as 4,5 has a 9 in it, given by the computer.

not good ones, citizen511

yeah, i had to guess on one the other day.

if a computer can figure it out algorithmically, then guessing is not necessary

4, 5 means row 4, column 5

that's not entirely true

Using enough chains can solve this, apparently

yeah but you have to have amazing logic skills wwd

thanks

yeah, but counting from which corner, RandLS?

the most common algorithm for computers to do this kind of thing is basically guessing

that's the whole point... to improve your logical skills

top left is 1,1 davidtoc

thx

Computers figure it out using recursive functions, where the solver proceeds by logic until it becomes trapped, but once it reaches a point where it can't proceed, it guesses.

miller da killer: Your Dad will pick you up at 1:30 for dentist...

so it's the opposite of what they teach you in school, where 1,1 is the bottom left.

hey thanks mayan warrior aka mom!

If computer program fails to solve it after the first guess, it returns to where it had to guess and tries another option.

mom have you figured this out?

just finished .. good look all !

I had to look back on chats and check some clues to get my "guess" to work!

hey abstract give me a good number?

well, i'll work on the guessing in my next class mayan

Yeah, you'll really learn stats that way!!!

I have just confirmed that this puzzle requires guessing and cannot be solved by logic alone. Try www.sudokusolver.co.uk

you can't prove a negative

that just confirms that the solver had to guess

hey thanks citizen!

all that means is that the solver is missing a logic rule

not that there's no possibly logical solution

I can prove that I don't have eleven fingers

alright you guys, i'll leave you to your argumnet cuz i got to go.

In fact, the solver required guessing after getting only two cells by logic.

then the algorithm is faulty

i still want to find a way to logic what that chain showed

Well if you figure it out, could you explain what step 3 means in plain english?

step 3 means there isn't a 6 in box 4,5 because it would cause a conflict in 6,6 and 6,5

and 7,5?

4,5 meaning 4 over from the left, 5 down?

(x,y) is row, column

yeah, (x, y) is a bad way to describe it since (x, y) makes people think of cartesian coordinates

texel... are you from texel?

the chain is a logic. Haven't we had one on here which required the colors method? That's simpler and useful when you have a lot of boxes with pairs. You color one path blue and the other yellow, say, and then anything not colored can be excluded. After that, lower complexity solving techniques usually finish it off.

I am not XD

took it from graphics nomenclature - I'm a graphics programmer

oh

just curious.... texel is the island where my family comes from

Or sometimes in colors you reduce to a contradiction

I have heard of it

actually island is probably not the right word

but you know what i mean

so yeah i think i give up

Sulihin, do you understand how Step 3 works? I can't see how a 6 in box (4,5) would cause a conflict in either (6,6) or (6,5)

what do you mean by "box (4,5)"? which box is that?

4th row, 5th column

i'm fighting over whether chains are logic or guessing atm :)

from top left?

or the center top box of the middle square

yes, from top left

thx

chains are logic if you can fit them in your head, IMO - but if you have to set pencil to paper in order to "see ahead" that far then I would just consider it guessing

call it whatever you want texel

I guess it's all a question of scale. Some of the patterns people here would consider only moderately advanced (X-xings, swordfish) are looking ahead to some extent. XY-wings and colors, definitely

But no one calls any of those guessing - just an assumption which results in a contradiciton

or contradiction

If I put a 6 in (4,5), I see how it causes the discrepancy in (6,5) and (6,6), but I CANNOT figure out how you could've logically deduced that without "guessing and looking ahead"

that's why it was considered guessing by the solver

I agree

i think sulihin and i have determined your test for "is it a guess" - can the chaining bit to find 6 be turned into a formal, general case proof?

x-wing can, y-wing can. can this chain?

but if I run through that scenario and end it by saying, "so if I originally placed a 6 in (4,5) it will cause a problem, so LOGICALLY, 6 cannot go in (4,5)" -- does that make it logical?

reductio ad absurdum - yes, it's just a proof by contradiction

well the particular chain in question results in a contradiction by elimination and not explicit incorrectness

it ends up that there's no number possible to go in the box, whereas with most contradictions it forces a particular number which in turn violates a rule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absu
rdum

well I don't know how, but I finished!

yay babsy

nut!! is it time to be chalker stalkers??

I figured out the first part of step three there

er, nevermind.. it's a later step

i don't think we can chalker stalker until 1) it gets dark out and 2) ren goes hom.

hope you sorted out your wardrobe better than yesterday.

I have filled in exactly 2 numbers and I really don't get what trick I'm supposed to do at this point. Maybe I'm just a n00b.

fair do's! *nods in agreement and winks* ;D

we'll be sneaky

lol, nut! well, as much as it kills me to wear Cats, if that's what I gotta do, then I gotta do it! ;)

right but supposedly "proper" sudoku don't require reductio ad absurdum

yes, the sacrifice is for the greater good. me thinks you would pass out if you ever had a look at my farmer wardrobe. which reminds me, i took farm pictures for you!

marvellous! how do I get to see the farm pics? (you'd pass out if you saw what I really wear, lol!) ; )

you want me to send them, or up load them to a web site you can go to?

ummm *thinks*... is website ok? be quicker to see and won't make my pc fall over. : )

okay - gimme a bit

Sulihin, I've been playing sudoku for over a year and reductio ad absurdum seems to be where it's at for most of them. ; )

has anyone else had the problem where they click on a square to select a number and all the little boxes are blank? It wont let me ad any numbers.

so... what's 'proper' sudoku then? ;

who knows!

sure, guessing can solve it easier, but purportedly it shouldn't be necessary

no mirrin, that hasn't happened to me. oh dear. : /

well that's tosh, Sulihin. Some grids can only be solved by guessing!

i've had to guess twice so far.

can they?

yup!! and some are supposedly "impossible".

i think it depends on what you mean by guessing.

but i just thought it was cause i couldn't see what i neede to see.

according to whom?

someone posted a website where they put one number in a certain box that can help you solve the rest of the problem by logic if anybody wants it

babsy - i 'think' i'm uploading now. who know, new program i'm learning.

if i have two squares where I can put a 4, I mentally see what happens a couple steps ahead if I put a 4 in each of them. i dont think of that as guessing.

lol!! well.... lemme tell ya! all those newspaper and mag articles, websites, ummmm.... what else do I read??... lol!

cool, nut : )

yeah, according to what i've read all published sudoku can be solved without guessing...

so who's read correctly?

Mirrin, some people consider that a form of guessing, some don't

hurrah! I waited a bit and it is working again.

I have!! (lol!!) : D

good for you, mirrin :D

did you see the post earlier about how computers solve sudoku? they can't without guessing either...

can't they?

yeah, sorry babs, stupid program is 'not respoding', suppose it will be a bit yet.

they can if the algorithm is right

you use that term so readily :)

yup.... not sure if the post is still on here, but it said something like a computer will go so far with definites, then it will start guessing.... and if required, further guessing. When it goes wrong, it goes back to the last guess... (which is how I play!) :D:D:D

ok, nut, let me know when : D

right but that doesn't mean anything...

it's easy for a computer to do that, so it's easier to program computers to solve it that way

well alright, computers don't have to guess every single time, but when a guess is required, apparently that's what they do

it doesn't mean it cannot be done in another way

btw, i'm a programmer by trade

you can solve this logically

no, you're right, it doesn't. there are grids that can be solved by logic alone. Obviously that's the first step until you reach an impasse, then it gets "creative" shall we say. ;D

but to say that a program solves it by guessing only proves the program wasn't designed to solve it in another way, not that there isn't another way to solve it without guessing

yeah but the interesting thing for me is understanding all the logic

so presuming that it can be solved without guessing, thats how i want to solve it

I'm not a programmer, I was having my dinner when I saw that post and it made sense to me. Ronincyberpunk's solution went over my head. I don't know everything. :'(

the interesting thing for me is how disappointed i am that i don't get a few seconds to look at my completed grid before it turns yellow.

guy, chess design to guess, why not sudoku?

good luck to you, Sulihin, I hope you can do it. ; )

I'm right with you, nut. I wish we could even see a pale grey version of our grid with "Congratulations" written all over it! :D

couple of fireworks - medal of honor

a curtsey or a bow wouldn't go amiss...... fanfare.....

cigar, glass of wine, pat on the shoulder

a shoulder massage....

free p40n

pr0n, rather

heh

what?

the geek speak for porn

que?

*covers eyes*

no, no need for that tp -

porn = pr0n
elite=L337

I know, I was just making a joke

shopping spree

what is that elite thing??

hamper from Harrods....

the 3's are supposed to be E's, and the 7 is supposed to be a T

i'd settle for a case of beer.

ooooh!! now I gettit! thanks tp17 : ) been bugging me for ages!

I wouldn't settle for less than a crate of champagne.... ; )

why do that tp?

so L337 says "Leet" ?

woss Leet then?

still don't get it

1337 you mean

geek speak, nut. It's a lingo invented by computer nerds to make out they're dead clever and everything. GW was telling us about it the other day.

hey, i'm dead clever!

1337? I heard it was L337? I'm befuddled.....

originally it was used to obfuscate speech so that automated scanners couldn't pick up keywords

ike pr0n :)

ahaaa!! that makes sense, Sulihin! :D

oooh----

I'm a genius, me, nut! lol :D

actually, leet speak was mainly a product of gamers, not computer geeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet/1337

if it's all the same to ya'll, i'll just stick with my regular lingo, don't won't look down the the regulars from my hhigh horse

yeh me too. I'll stick to normal lingo too. : )

a solver purporting to exhaust all known methods of logic just told me "sorry, but I've got to guess"

haha. We use it here at work, but just to make fun of the people that actually type like that. We've actually had a guy send an email with "LOL" in it. There were a few managers on it, and he was so "dorked up", he didn't know better than not to use Geek Speak

ahaaa!! leet = elite!! thanks for that link, Sulihin :D

LOL isn't geek speak, it's an acronym

the question is how much logic they coded into it

babs, i'm having upload issues, you have an email address you don't mind me sending to? i'll only send um, five.

soz binary slave. that's how someone described it to me. (but geek speak sounds funny, huh?)

babbler_2005@yahoo.co.uk

kay, sorry bout that

no worries ; )

Texel - did you just say an expert HAS to guess today's grid?? see!! I started off by magically finding numbers I had no right to find, followed by a guess, followed by an educated guess with pairs.... and finished! :D

five farmies on their way, the mother in law picture is hilarious

k.. I'll get ready.... :D

it's the solver at sudokusolver.co.uk

a hoi hoi, saru girl

but since they don't use the "standard" terms for their logic methods, it's hard to see what they have going there

I haven't tried any solvers yet. any good?

Q: does Zone Alarm update automatically or do you sometimes have to follow prompts?

starting over

binary slave, what is LOL an acronym for?

"Laughing out loud"

I've heard it referred to as "Lots of Love"

SCUBA is an acronym. LOL is Geek Speak

wee

two guesses sends this puzzle crashing down

LOL is certainly "laughing out loud"

same with me :(

akin to "rofl"

roflol

lmao

ttyl

brb

bbl

would anyone object to me giving the locations of the two boxes I guessed? I know some people are having a hard time cracking it

tp, geek speak, or l337 speak as some call it, is really just substitution of letters with other similiar letters or numbers.

I know what it is

you said that LOL wasn't geek speak. I said it was

this one is TOUGH

LOL, stands for laughing out loud and came about because of chat rooms and email

that's all

well, I'll post the locations of the two boxes then

i'd be happy to get rid of a few greenies even.

(2, 7) and (5, 3) - if you get the correct numbers in those two, the entire rest of the puzzle can be solved through simple logic

that's (row, column) from the top left, 1-indexed

another hint is that those two boxes each have only two possibilties for numbers - so at most you would do 4 guess-and-checks

hope that helps, I'm filling my last box now and logging

congrats Texel

thanks

evanonut - what's a greenie?

pencilled in numbers.

wait, expert is only 5 pts? what is the 10 pt. category called?

ah, ok. I'm using red, is that any different?

well, depends on how you play it, matt. red means it's not that number & green means it could be. but if you are playing reds as you think it could be, then there is no difference.

expert was 10pt. It was changed a while back.

what's "ttyl" ?

"talk to you later"

talk to you later

oh!! lol!! "talk to you later" :D

babs, how did you not know that

or the tigger way - ttfn "ta ta for now"

no one's used it with me before, hursh. : /

lol

i guess you don't chat with many teens online then

see, I just grab people's ankles so they never get a chance! lol!

lol

funnily enough, no, hursh, I don't. : )

you grab people's ankles?

only kidding, wwd ; )

oh

babsy, like your pictures?

wwd - she only grabs ankles when she's chalker stalkering

chalker?

er, yah, you know, like chalk.

i don't get your meaning

sorry, guess it's only funny to me and babs

lololol

i have no doubt, i just don't understand the joke

i could explain, but you would just roll your eyes

oh, oh *gasping from laughing so hard*

i probably wouldn't, but i am a bit too tired for humor at the moment

hurshy luv, perhaps you should sit a spell, don't want you to pass out now.

*ceases rolling at nut's orders. sits quietly"

phew.

hey... at least someone enjoyed that

there now, how about a nice glass of wine

virtual or real?

real of course

oh then no

right...virtual then

yummy, virtual wine

i call it megagig

it's got byte... hehe

lol, nut!! yup, I only grab ankles when I'm chalker stalkering! XD. (nope - not got pics yet) : )

tastes like a very good vintage, nut

lol wwd! :D

do you stalk chalkers often?

LOL!! no, only with nut on a good day! ;D

no no no, we chalker stalk

sounds like an interesting past time

btw - it's stalking with chalk ; )

we wear cat boots, jeans, flannels, leave our guns at home in the cookie jar and are very very sneaky.

oh... hmm

yeah, and I can't wear my edwardian boots either. :'(

i'm sure this is all very funny when you know what you are talking about... unfortunately, things seem to be floating above me for the moment

nope babs, not allowed, and when you catch your chalker stalker victim, you nail them with a chalk mustache!

wwd - s'alright, we're continuing some banter from the babble chatlog last night. ; )

oh... i don't really like babble very much.... too much like boggle

lol!! chalk moustache! XD

I've never played boggle. : /

i love babble, only i'm not fussed about actually finishing the puzzle the way a bunch of people are.

yeah, I don't play if I know I'm not gonna finish.

well, it's similar to babble though it's more time based and is usually in competition to other players

boggle boggle

boggle is brilliant

I'd lose then. I can be very slow sometimes. : /

i'm sure you'd acclimate

i LOVE boggle, only no one will play with me

poor nut. :(

oh nut, it's basically the same with me

only really it's that i won't play it with them bc i feel too guilty

we'll boggle sometime hursh

guilty?

yeah, guilty?

i'm a good loser

bc i beat everyone so very badly

oh... hmm...

nut are you in the states or england?

do you use three letter words? i hate it when people play with three letter words... i am a passionate four letter worder

except at sports. i really hate losing at sports. if i'm playing against my husband, i hate him. i'm in the states hursh.

you'd love babble then, wwd! : )

yet your nickname is only 3 letters!

LOL Sulihan!!

well then, you're on, nut!

i don't like babble because some of the words are just crazy

feel free to kick my derriere anytime you please

fair do's, wwd, that they are. : /

sulihin... my nickname is my initials... i blame my parents

what state nut?

yeah i was just kidding :)

pennsylvania - you hursh?

ct

i realized... as was i

not too far!

hmmmm....

well depending where in PA

i'm on the west edge of CT

sulihin... did you say you are a programmer by trade?

but hursh, i'm in western pa

but hursh, i'm in western pa

oops

quite close to ohio really

oh, let's see, how many hours is that from here...5, 6?

7?

can't you just play boggle online together or something?

hmm... well, if we meet in the middle it's not so bad

dunno

never saw it online except for download

Isn't it against the rules of sudoku to guess and check??

boggle online... if there is a site my school doesn't block

no

ben - apparently, that is a debate.

ah... scholl networks

it's been debated at great lenght at least :)

what do you mean, ben?

yeah, Sulihin and I had a head to head, didn't we? ;D

he means babs that some of us believe that no sudoku should REQUIRE guessing, all should be solvable by logic

are there actually rules to sudoku?

ah hursh, boggling from work?

and "guessing" would include thinking ahead.

I read that if you don't know absolutely what goes in the box, you can't fill it in. Logic must back up every entry

theres THE rule ofc

work/home is same nut, boarding school.

hmm

nice

oh!! nah, utter tosh. whatever gets a completed grid is cool by me!! lol!

no group can contain the same number twice

babs, some of us feel that guessing is cheap

bugger, didn't realize that.

it does not require intelligence

well than, slap me silly and call me cheap!

I call it intelligent, hursh. yes it does require intelligence!!! :o !! what are you on about??

from my point of view it's more if i don't understand the logic to solve the puzzle then there's something for me to learn

well, if there is some logic you don't know, yes, i would agree

right.... me too... besides, it's more of a challenge

the problem lies in what the creators of the puzzle define as valid though

I look for patterns all the time in sudoku. I'm fairly confident I've cracked the twins rule, and now I'm working on triplets.

but if there is NO way to just use logic, i think that is not a valid sudoku

for my part, i just like to give it a go. if i can't make it out, ah well!

as long as it's fun :)

I think logic and creativity work side by side in sudoku

i'm reading the chat log to see what diff people's computer analyses showed

hear hear, Sulihin, as long as it's fun :D

computer analyses?

s'right, nut. when I play newspaper sudokus, if I haven't solved it first time, I throw it away.

i think all the ones published in newspapers are fabulously easy

i'm bout to give up on this bad boy.

i've got overtime coming my way, don't want to be sick of sitting when it gets here.

nut, there is one number you can place which make the rest fall out with simple logic

I was close to that too, nut, but then the thought of points kept me going. I threw a few numbers at it and it seemed to work. I also stopped to eat! ;D

hmmm, it IS ten points i suppose.

i will give you a coded hint if you like, so it won't be obvious to the people who don't want to hear it

which number was that, hursh? (or a clue, if not the exact number)

no it is 5 points

no no no, thats okay

maybe ill break a bit and come back to it

the first box is the number of planets times the number of peas in a pod plus the normal human number of fingers divided by the number of "golden rings" in the 12 days of christmas

now if you don't want to know don't think about that

shoot, i went the wrong way

hurshy, you sure that school of yours doesn't have padded walls?

not golden rings, swans a swimming

:)

*whooshes overhead* :s

come on, babs, you must know those numbers.

i made them all things that are common knowledge, i thought

well peas in a pod has thrown me cos there's not always the same number. I should know, I used to help my Mum when I was a kid.

from the saying, babs

ohhhh!! duh

hang on, forgot how many planets there are..... just going to commune with google.... brb...

like forrest and jenny

That threw me for a second, too. :)

I don't know about the peas

babs is lying, i happen to know she's finished.

she might still want to know how many planets there are

yeah, Ihave finished, actually. I'm just hanging out. ;D

see

wow, looks like grigs made an incredibly lucky mistake

are we counting newly discovered planets like that chairon (sp?) and that other one, Xena?

no just the normal ones in our solar system

Charon is a moon of Pluto, more or less

if we had to count ALL the planets... well, get out your star trek encyclopedias...

yes, hursh, I think that's the number I got over there too. (figured out your coded clue at last!) : )

lol

bummer, dang new medicare prescription plan sucks!

I hope I worked it out right

see, and people think there is no way to give clues in here w/o ruining it for other people

I'm running with it

you sure deserve a medal for that one, hursh, that was a beauty!! lol! :D

gov't toting on about how great it is, well, they just said the hubby nuts drugs weren't covered. i'm gonna have to find out who's neck to wring.

oh no, that doesn't sound too good, nut. sorry to hear that.

i hope i can straighten it out, i don't have 20,000 a month to blow on drugs.

neck to wring - bush? or perhaps that 5th supreme ct judge?

i'll take anyone really. as if i can work 60 hour weeks AND sort through this crap.

sorry, but i'm a mite bit irate now.

i'm so sorry nut!!! :( :(

yeah, something finally works and they cut it out of the frigging pharmacy

-- side note: did anyone notice that 'nut' is in the babble puzzle today?

haven't played babble (again) today, nut. I feel so mad about this meds thing. So sorry to hear that.

i'm sure it can be sorted out, but really, who are they to play god?

it is the story of the future... all these things will be invented that would improve people's lives so much, but only the rich will get them.

'they' do it everywhere. over here in the UK too. : /

now why haven't I fallen off my chair to hear that, hursh? I think you're right...

oh, i'll get it anyway. i'll call the company that makes it first and go on from there. if i have to i'll get a loan.

find out if there's a generic version?

bab's, i've heard horror stories about uk healthcare

babs, thats the 20,000 one

there are horror stories coming from every corner of the globe, nut

no way, nut!!! I'm shocked..

and that's for one month, i need a minimum of two.

i think it's insurance companies trying to scare us from national healthcare

hey, i'm plugging away here now, guess i just had to get mad.

:D I got mad at the grid and that seemed to work for me!

stalled

have you got a sea of green still?

or did you hit a wrong number?

more like scattered lakes

but i'm way farther than my first adventure

ok, so you didn't hit a wrong number?

hmm, not that i know of yet

don't even have a 3x3 done yet to tell the truth

i finished before, but i'm retrying on paper now to see if i can get it without that box 1 given, with real logic

right, try this.... look for pairs... then pick one to hypothetically see where it takes you. I change the colour to red, and "pencil" in as far as I can go...

found another

don't need to guess...yet

I leave all the other little greenies where they are....

oh ok... save it for later then ;D

nope, not yet

hursh, I want to know what you find, ok? : )

i don't think i'll be guessing

hey, or maybe i will, dang

it could take a WHILE babs, but i'll let you know tomorrow if you are gone

i'm going to use some of the posted jargony links from earlier in the day

k, hursh : )

i WAS awfully sleepy this morning so didn't try my hardest

actually, I'm about ready for tea so I'll skip off now. see you all later / tomorrow. Good luck!! :D

bye babs!

bye bbsy

(yawns)

I'm using that one number.. Will probably fill it in over the next hour or two between other things.

Or it might not take that long..

After getting that one number, I finished with no guessing. Still had a lot of thinking to do, but no guesses.

Expert?!

Man, I thought it wouldn't get harder than hard

Hi everyone :)

Hi, bjornkri

If you find it possible to solve without "forcing chains" or guessing, let us know..

maybe we just need a little hint, maybe... the bottom right box, of the bottom right square. if anyone has that, it would be handy

Don't even know what 'forcing chains' are, but I'll try ;P

so far all I've managed is a 3

I think it's possible to get a 4 as well

hint?

matt, don't make the lines go pink

hahahaa

Heheheh

I have the first 3 and 4, but what's the next one anyone got? I've been stuck here for hours and hours

Just give me a number to look for

ive made a stupid guess, hoping its right

Umm, hurshy gave a great clue a little while ago

Oh, it's hiding now

bummer

I can't see it on the log either

Perhaps you can

Are you sure it's solvable? I tried a depth first search, trying each of three values for one square, and all led to conflicts

hi hi

it's solvable

we're just not clear on whether it is solvable without guessing

bottom,right box bottom,right square isnt 8

"the first box is the number of planets times the number of peas in a pod plus the normal human number of fingers divided by the number of [swans a-swimming] in the 12 days of christmas"

or once again on the definition of guessing

That's hurshy's clue with correction

oh, look at me getting quoted

It's a classic, hurshy

;)

like dickens

oh i forgot | like dickens

are you always here hurshy or does it just take you all day to do a puzzle?

my sister and i decided that in e-communication there needs to be a way to indicate sarcasm, and we chose starting with | since that is not used for much

oh i finished the puzzle

but now i am redoing it

on paper

to see if i can get it w/o that first number

i leave myself logged in and check in now and then

i do NOT understand this jargon!

grrr

look at all the marty's though! isn't he cute?

Marty?

my cat

The cat?

the kitty

Ah :)

I really can't find anything other than the 3, where abouts is the 4? is there a technique I don't know about?

right below the 8, bottom center

oh yeah, I do have it :S

woops :P

there is another 3 that can be placed easily unless i copied the puzzle down wrong

8s in middle column

what the fuck's goin'on round here?

:)

no need for language, might be kids here

odd, too, bc doc g has a <beep> on babble chat, why not here?

who knows how many time left to the next round?

just over 7 hours

david & hurshy -- thanks for the hint. i'll try it.

Hence the "7+ hours left" below the puzzle ;)

but a...ist only one puzzle a day?

only one a day yes

for more try www.websudoku.com

ok

let me says that the puzzles here are tuff

Right, all is green and the 3 and 4 have been found... now to get cracking

yes websudoku does not seem to have any like this

fishy cycles, my goodness, i don't get them

bah im going to bed, night all

good luck, bjornkri... it ain't easy

well i think i at least understand y-cycles

i forgot to screencap today though so i am not sure i am getting it right in this redo

Tough one, right?

yes artlady, indeed it is

i think different people have different definitions of what constitutes a valid sudoku

Hola!

I just started this one...

y-cycles? :\

i know, i am venturing into scary realms

Anything more advanced than an x-wing is beyond me.. and even that has me scratching my head

i do not quite get x-cycles

or at least, i can't identify them properly

I'm more a tri-cycle kind of player...

maybe we just haven't GOT any x-cycles in this puzzle

i wish caderoux were here, he seems to know about these weird thingys

um. . . what are x cycles and y cycles?

something on a site that someone posted this link for:

something on a site that someone posted this link for:
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sud
oku/top95-analysis.htm

i see

i hope i am doing this right

undo botton wold be a lifesavior, Dr God :)

*groan* Too hard a read

I'd need someone to actually show me to get it :P

yul, there is one

no kidding, bjornkri, the only part i think i get is the y-cycles

do tell where

under the puzzle

one step undo

you can clear all, or go back to a checkpoint

not good enough for me :)

I'm sure the relationship between r3c5 and r6c2 could reveal something.. just not sure how

i think it's working!

hooray for you hurshy!

i pressed lots of battons by mistake today. to tired

it DID work

only... i don't totally understand WHY y-cycles work. which does not make me feel totally happy.

oh well, that is enough thinking about sudoku for today

I just understand enough about cycles to find one. And I just did. :P

It's very frustrating though that I don't know what to do with it

Why is an "expert" puzzle worth the same amount of points as a "hard" puzzle? I nearly killed myself trying to solve that one.

thanks to mayan warrior i have successfully finished my first expert sudoku!

congrats!

Right, I've definately found a continuous x-cycle of length.. uh.. 8. This is using every instance of 'x' found in the puzzle, so if I understand this correctly, I guess that won't help me one bit? :\

oki, I got the definition now, I was on the wrong track all along :P never mind

Gack, there is a logical way to solve this? Shoot.

bjornkri - did you successfully use an x-cycle? i just used a whole bunch of y-cycles

i couldn't figure out the x-cycles

whatever you thought at 6:06 is what i thought too, i think

YES!!!!!!!!!! i done it onley took me sence 12:02 this morning

cycles?

hax - yes, it's wacked

Where would I learn such a technique?

i can USE y-cycles but i haven't applied my mind to seeing WHY they work

and i have not yet successfully used an x-cycle

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sudoku/t
op95-analysis.htm

haven't even LOOKED at the 3D medusa business

why did this have to happen just when spring break ENDED

You could just.. um.. I dunno. Read a book instead? :)

Can you give me a hint where I might find a y-cycle? :p

I think I get the concept, just can't spot one

oh i did the puzzle...

let me see, i will try to figure it out

well, first bjorn, did you figure out about the 1's in the top section?

and did you place the 3 in the top middle group

No and no :\ I've got two-and-two candidates of ones in the top section.

well i didn't mean place the 1's, just eliminate it as a poss from one square

I might have :P

just as you (hopefully) elminated the 6's as poss from 2 squares in the bottom right group?

Yeah, I did

ok, and the 3 in the top middle is easy

Yep, eliminated the two sixes below, but the three ? I've got two candidates there still

hang on, let me check, i have to look at how the puzzle looks blank again

+5 points

ugh, why isn't it showing?

hax, what did you do? guess?

ok, bjorn, can you just tell me which numbers are in the top middle group to start with?

No. I used that little clue from this morning

.8. .21 5..

top middle!

I just realized what you meant :Ð

Of course, I have that three... I was looking in the top row, middle column

yeah

c1r4

shit... I shouldn't have said that

(sorry, I got over excited)

hmm, no can't see anything special about the sevens in the top row

When you say top middle... :P

so the top middle one would be rows 1-3, columns 4-6

But the three I found earlier was in rows 4-6, columns 1-3 so maybe we weren't talking about the same thing?

good GRIEF

here's what I have:

http://www.timmyponline.com/random/sud
oku.jpg

I have two possible threes in the middle top group still. There are threes in the middle and the bottom middle, but that's not enough.

i copied that first 8 down in the wrong place, so i solved an entirely different sudoku

oh dear..

That explains alot though ;)

why you can't find my y-cycles and i can't find any x-cycles?

yeah for one :P Also why I couldn't find that three in the top-col

guess we'll have to wait until another day to master these techniques. i want to watch idol.

err row

yeah, and time for bed for me

yes, i thought it was odd that i had missed it the first go-round when it was so easy

well, see ya

later

TP17: About the same for me, only you seem to have eliminated alot more than me

somebody posted a text file earlier, and it had some instructions to get the third number. that's why some of my 'possibles' are gone

I couldn't follow the logic, but other people used it and said that it worked.

finished after an hour

Found a good summary of all techniques here: http://shrinkster.com/dhh

so what is the "magic" technique that we need to know for this one?

I finished, but I had to guess on 2 particular squares

and I got help from a text file that somebody posted earlier to get me to the point where I had to guess on the two squares

If anybody wants to see where I got to with the help of the text file:

http://www.timmyponline.com/random/sud
oku.jpg

Good night all

very long forcing chains discussed in this file - http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt - from there I completed it - if you did all the steps in that file you should be down to mostly basic pairs and hidden singles.

i don't really want to follow somebody else's printout from a program: is there some easily-explainable logic to break in?

assuming you've got the 3 and the 4 and done the eliminations you can with the 1s and the 6s, right...

got the 3 and 4; I think I did the 1/6 elims but I'm not sure, I started last night.

can you point me to a section to jog my memory?

I think I did something while working the puzzle.

hmm, I think I'll try a new technique

nope, I think I wont bother ;-) have fun all

The solver at http://act365.com/sudoku/ generates those chains. Other than the people who guess, there is only the chains or one of the more computer-oriented techniques like template exclusion.

a duel with ashling

:)

I know I could stretch my brain greatly by forcing chains, but I am too lazy

i finished it ... exosted... must look away

The command line solver gives a different slant - try this chain: 1. The cell (3,1) is one of 2 candidates for the value 1 in Row 3.
2. The cell (1,7) is one of 2 candidates for the value 1 in Row 1.
3. The cell (4,4) is one of 2 candidates for the value 1 in Row 4.
The move (4,4):=1 leads to a contradiction.
The cell (4,5) is the only candidate for the value 1 in Row 4.

I just found an excellent website with techniques:

http://www.angusj.com/sudoku/hints.php

9 hrs 1 min... of time wasted

But unfortunately, none of those are needed to solve this one - even Simple Sudoku will not give hints until you make progress beyond the forcing chain.

had to guess in many areas and started 3 times.

i need an axtra colour for double guessing :)

man, ive only placed 2 numbers today...heh

iv got 4

after i ran into a dead end, i ran it through a solver to see the logic that i was missing. according to the solver, there is either more than one solution, or some guessing is necessary

The solvers I used show only one valid solution.

did the solver use logic only, or a trial and error approach?

once i permitted the solver to "guess" it was able to solve the puzzle, but it claims logic alone wasn't able to

They use different guessing techniques which end up with a contradiction. I guess it all depends on what we mean by logic...

Since there is only one solution, it must be deducible by logic, no matter how tortured...

hehe. yeah, i suppose you are right

What most people object to as a guess is the first step in reductio ad absurdum or proof by contradiction. In this case an assumption is proven false by producing a contradiction. But many patterns and techniques people regularly use in Sudoku really are like RAD.

this is the first time i've had to revert to anything like that

It's rare. Simple Sudoku doesn't even generate these (for me). I know there has been some work to determine how many grids there are. I know there are 36^3 possible or 46656 possible arrangements or templates for a single digit throughout the puzzle. I'd love to know what the distribution of difficulty levels are throughout all possible Sudokus - but Sudokus are more than the grids - there are also choices about the givens - which multiplies the possibilities greatly.

yeah but supposedly that shouldn't be necessary

Opinions vary... http://shrinkster.com/dhj

This one was definitely far more difficult than the previous expert-level one here.

ah well, gotta split. good luck, all!

caderoux - these x-cycles and y-cycles and medusa 3D's i was looking at look more "logical" to me than the chains you mention, which still strike me as guessing, but maybe they really amount to the same thing? what do you know about them? do you think that if one learns those techniques one can solve every sudoku?

the solver that produces the chains uses the bifrucation techniques that are still technically guessing, i wish we knew for sure if this puzzle required it or not :(

I've keyed this one into the medusa solver at http://shrinkster.com/dhk

guessing

ok, i'm going to try it, i was thinking that site looked helpful so i'll probably play around with it. thanks, caderoux.

wait, so you can't go through the puzzle yourself on that site? i thought you could. i thought it was going to let me do what i could, and then show me where to see the cycles and stuff so i could learn how they work.

but i don't seem to be able to change the marks to eliminate those 6's and 1's, for instance.

the only thing i have learned from today's puzzle is how to recognise the one which is solved by guessing :)

I think you can, but I haven't figured out how - I've just using hint and step to understand its logic (which is different to any of the others I've seen posted here) It starts by eliminating (after the 1s and 6s) 2 from r7c7

oh, i see

the 2s is easy. you can only go one way or another with them

Well, then that's the key, cos once you've got that, there are no forcing chains...

caderoux: how did you eliminate 2 from r7c7? b/c I decided to guess on r4c8, where I had either a 2 or an 8, and i tried the 8 ad it didn't work, so i thought that meant it had to be a 2...which then means r7c7 has to be a 2?

YES!!!!!!! That is it. There is nothing else needed to solve this one. Do a regular colors technique on the 2s and then all the 2s drop right out. Have no idea why Simple Sudoku doesn't hint for this.

2s are the dead end

simple sudoku makes easy thinks look difficult. i reckon, bad info design?

wait, wait. I might have made a keypunch error

Twinkie - you're partially right, r7c7 isn't 2, but it takes more than colors, I'm trying to distill it from the medusa solver's info about that chain.

Which explains why SS doesn't hint this.

Yesterday when I tried, I figured either r7c7 or r7c8 should be a 2, and I started with one and led to the dead end after the while (guess I started with r7c7), but starting with a 2 in r7c8 lead to another cul-de-sac

sooner or later...

but, anyway, it's a guessing...

evening, everyone :)

ooh, an "expert" puzzle tonight :)

before that, I started with a bifurcation of a 1 in r4c4 or r4c5... also dead end

so, I guess just one guess (bifurcation) is not enough to solve this one...

starting with a 1 in r4c5 looked very promising... but failed...

i remember finding a contradiction when i started wiyh one of the 2s from middle left square (if it helps, lawfully)

r7c7 definitely not 2 - still trying to give y'all the simplest logic - there were 7 chains in that method ronin posted! - after that, it drops out.

that means a 2 should be in r7c8?

thanks, yul

oi!

I see the logic why r7c7 cannot be a 2

accidentally hit "save as checkpoint" instead of "return to checkpoint" when I followed a trail....but if caderoux is right that r7c7 isn't a 2, it wouldn'thave mattered anyway. i give up! :-)

but 2s will not take you to the end :(

if r7c7 is a 2, then r5c7 cannot be a 2

part of the prob is i just can't see all the diff things youguys see. i guess you are using diff software? what is medusa?

If you get the 2s, there is nothing more complicated than colors afterwards.

twinkle, have you seen the league of gentlemen'? LOL

i thinnk 7s are teaming up on me and wont let compleat this puzzle

DOOD. that was hard!

But there are a LOT of colors (more straightforward forcing chains) afterwards

ashling?

hi :D

ugh, i still don't get it, how does that prove r7c7 isn't 2? why can't the greens be right, and r4c6 a 6? do i need to look at other cells to see why or just the ones it is highlighting?

I can't figure out the r7c7<>2 either, but at least it's only one mystery step - all the colors after it are explained easily by Simple Sudoku, whereas in the file posted earlier, there are another 6 chains you need to follow...

i don't like mystery steps :(

whoa, it's like people are talking another language in here

omg....finally done...now i can go to bed in peace

sorry leslie, we are referring to another website that shows you how to solve puzzles step-by-step

hurshy, could you direct me to the plase of colours and chains, please

can't figure out the notation?

eh, no problem, i just started... maybe i should turn back!

Go here: http://shrinkster.com/dhk - hint/step, hint/step, hint/step - but I can't figure out the chain 2(B) from the highlighting.

that sounds like s&m or something "the place of colors and chains"

http://www.simes.clara.co.uk/programs/sudokut
echnique9.htm

ignore technique9

hard for me to follow the marks anyway, i need the little numbers so i don't have to constantly think what each mark is

it basically colors 2 then eliminates B right?

But why B?

damn

we have to guess in this one, right?

you can if you want to

it tried it and found a conflict?

but not within the 2s

there is something external like the 1/6 pair at r1c7 interacting with the 6s in box 6

it found a conflict with 9s in column 1

i don't get it really :(

it does odd things with 7s in a chain later too

Sulihin: If you find a conflict, that means you made a mistake.. you have to either try to backtrack and fix it or start over

ugh i don't think i like expert level

what i don't get is why none of the evils i've ever done on websudoku are anything like as complex as this

yeah i'm talking about how a solver is solving the puzzle, i gave up like 12 hours ago :)

ah

caderoux, i am glad that i went to your recomended assistant sudoku/solver site. 'This page also demonstrates that all methods of solving Sudoku puzzles are simply variants of trial and error.' i was so glad to read that there! also they call macs 'macintoshes'. i like